Curse

Urban Cohort · Apr 21, 2005, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Suppose your hireing for your guild, It would be really nice to be able to duel someone, just to make sure they know what they're doing. and it would just be a nice fun thing to have if your waiting in the guildhall for your friends to get on..(which can take a LLLOOOONNNGGG time)

William of Orange · Apr 22, 2005, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Well, first things first; this would fall pretty much into the category of 1v1 duels. Even if its intention is only to allow guild leaders to test out prospective members, you'd want to do a search for any of the 1v1 threads and see what people think.

P.S.: Thanks for the catch Flame, I was first going to type "I know for a fact that you're lying about your signature," but changed my thought in the middle of my sentence, and that was the result. No need to sound so pissy about it though.

P.P.S.: Ahh, now that signature is much more family friendly. I'm feeling the love

Flame · Apr 22, 2005, 01:07 AM // 01:07

And I know for a fact that your post says...
"I know for a fact that you are signature does not mean 'you are my friend.'"

If you want to test someone's abilities, go with them to some arena. A one-on-one duel will not give you any idea on how well they fight in team situations.

Lunarhound · Apr 22, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27

I've really never understood why this idea is so heavily opposed. No, the game isn't balance for it and it serves no real purpose, but that doesn't matter. It's something that many people would obviously like to be able to do for fun. Those who participate in it will do so in private instances, away from the public eye. Those who don't like dueling never even have to see a duel, let alone participate in one. If people want to be able to have consentual one on one fights with each other, let them do it. It doesn't hurt anything.

Raumoheru · Apr 22, 2005, 02:35 AM // 02:35

1v1 would still be very nice to play, and since you can solo the main missions you should be able to solo a pvp fight

William of Orange · Apr 22, 2005, 02:35 AM // 02:35

I actually don't really have any stand on the matter; if it's added, that's all fine and dandy. If it's not, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. As long as it can be put in the right way I'd be fine doing it, since I have some friends who I want to take on at some point in the Arena but don't want to be on any other team besides the one I'm on...

Lunarhound · Apr 22, 2005, 02:45 AM // 02:45

That's more or less my stance as well. I've never been a big fan of dueling, and I doubt I'd make use of it much, if at all. The reason I'm always quick to defend the idea is that, while dueling isn't necessarily something I'm going to lose any sleep over, the view that "I don't want to do it, so other people shouldn't be able to do it either" has always baffled me. I don't think it's conducive to the overall health of the game, and in the end, it seems to be the only real argument for not having something like this.

Mouth-For-War · Apr 22, 2005, 05:06 AM // 05:06

I would be all for 1v1 (probably use it) but I'm not, since most likely all the little noobies will start basing charactors on 1v1, and that would lead to balancing that effects the *real* game.

Mabe if it were only useable by high lvl guild members and the kiddies couldnt get there hands on it, then it would be cool. Fat chance they'd alow that though.

Manderlock · Apr 22, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Ive said I think it would be a good addition, now im gonna sit back and watch as this topic get shoved under the table once agin.

Auh · Apr 22, 2005, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Well, The person who wins would'nt necessarily be better. Some classes just do better than other classes. This wouldn't be much about skill, A bit, But not much. Anyways, You would get a fair amount of xp for killing another foe which could be abused. Let's say a low level person wants to level easily. A higher person helps him. So, All they have to do to get some easy xp is duel, and just have the higher character do nothing and/or weaken himself.(Frenzy, Various Necro skills, etc.)

Manderlock · Apr 22, 2005, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auh

Well, The person who wins would'nt necessarily be better. Some classes just do better than other classes. This wouldn't be much about skill, A bit, But not much. Anyways, You would get a fair amount of xp for killing another foe which could be abused. Let's say a low level person wants to level easily. A higher person helps him. So, All they have to do to get some easy xp is duel, and just have the higher character do nothing and/or weaken himself.(Frenzy, Various Necro skills, etc.)

If this was impimented most of us belive it should have no rewards. Meaning no exp or anything gained.

Jackell · Apr 22, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouth-For-War

I would be all for 1v1 (probably use it) but I'm not, since most likely all the little noobies will start basing charactors on 1v1, and that would lead to balancing that effects the *real* game.

Oh god yeah. That's what always happens when people start dueling. They want the one uber class that can out duel anyone so they can pwn all by themselves, and the concept of guildfights gets pushed further and further back.

However dueling can be fun, so maybe a method like only other guildmates, or only one map, with no xp to be gained from it. Just something to re-inforce the fact that this game isn't desgined for that.

Sin · Apr 22, 2005, 11:11 AM // 11:11

"A false sense of security."

That is what it promotes, both for guild leaders and the player.

The reason?...They go into guild battle, get slaughtered relying on what they did in a 1v1 battle, and keep doing it, then since their builds that kick ass 1v1 didn't work in guild versus guild, they complain to Arena.net. Arena.net kindly listens and the person then feels they didn't because nothing is changed. Multiply this by the percentage of the market you want to attract and this is a problem. There is this small but ever growing group of posts being done at WOW and other fansites about "GuildWars crappy 1v1." and how "Aren.net won't do anything about it, they are just like blahblah." It is a form of market erosion that Arena.net doesn't need, especially so soon, with their first offering.

Maybe something people want. I have even supported a dueling so that people could test a build, but I started to recant and have turned back to not liking it for the above reason. This is why you will hear people say "the game isn't made for that." So in that consideration of how people actually are once you open a can of worms/Pandora's box--give them an inch then they want a mile--and how it would discourage GuildWars growth curve, do you continue to believe dueling is so vital? Remember it is misleading no matter who wins the 1v1 and also remember Arena.net can warn them of that till they're blue in the face, so to speak, it won't mean anything to the person who is sure they should have won because they took down the guildleader in 7 seconds 15 times no matter what build he had--No one qualifying that win, or the opponent's loss, with the lack of 7 other players (i.e. 14 other professions).

Please understand all of the above may be a reason to hold out hope. Once the game has a solid and established base of users and growth curve Arena.net could rebalance the entire game to meet the needs of players who want 1v1. They might actually sacrifice their successful guild versus guild matrix as it is right now for a more risky model that would provide 1v1 if there is such a thing. Understand the correlative to implementing 1v1: At this time guild versus guild will have to suffer if they make the game 1v1 compatible to avoid market erosion from the lost 1v1 crowd (market). So the 1v1 market has to be larger than the amount of people they will lose by weakening the guild versus guild.

I am sure someone is already thinking of the forum poll about 1v1 that had 50 people saying yes. I salute you for consider the most irrelevant information possible as that is not potential market and you have no way to separate out who that voted is new or who is a potential buyer, and this is where the translation of why it's a bad idea is getting lost to the current players.

Please, before you who want this so badly find contempt for what I have said look at it and consider the interrelation of it too. I think you'll find it is not unreasonable though it isn't emotionally appealing as the desire for 1v1 and thinking it is some simple thing to implement.

Lunarhound · Apr 22, 2005, 12:51 PM // 12:51

I just don't think it's necessary to do any balancing at all, for 1v1 duels. Put them in the game so that people who want to do it can do it, and then leave it completely alone. If anyone starts trying create builds just to be good at 1v1 and take them into GvG or Tombs, let them. They'll quickly be battered into oblivion and find out that those builds don't work in normal PvP. It's a very small thing, that's being blown way out of proportion. As long as it's understood that Guild Wars isn't really meant to be a 1v1 game, there's no harm at all in letting people have their fun.

Sin · Apr 22, 2005, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Lunar, I know you dont' get it. And that's too bad because it would really be nice if you did. But we can't all have our way now can we? So in the same way you don't get it and no one can force you to the game has no 1v1 dueling. Oh and the more you make of the why it isn't there, the more you answer to what I posted above as to why there is no 1v1. You are making the case for me in the continued not getting it.

My honest hope is that at some point people stop thinking they are being denied something in 1v1 being unavailable. The reason is that to be denied, so far as software is concerned, it had to be something that was intended and even made available, and then withdrawn. 1v1 or dueling was never any of these things. If you all can wrap your minds around that for a few minutes I am hoping you'll see why to implement it requires more than you have thus far been willing to admit, and, why the result without such changes would be Arena.net not giving a damn about misleading players in making such options the game isn't designed for available. When they get their ass kicked in guild versus guild, lunar you assume they'll be reasonable about it. Show me the 100% reasonable society.

Alright knowing this is not likely to occur reasonably and instead will be emotionally charged and filled with looking for "who to blame," who do you think wil be first on the hit list?...

-The other team for cheating, so that's the first email to Arena.net. Our player receives a polite response stating "We are looking into the incident of where you say ACME guild may have violated the EULA" (wasting resources that could be used for expansions).

-Our player feeling they were ignored or nothing happened because when they see the guild in-game the Guild is intact and appears unaffected. So here the next email to Arena.net with the explanation about...."The other team must have cheated because I beat my guild leader in a 1v1 sparring match and his warrior is stronger than any one of their team. There is no way we could have lost to them 35 times." Another polite email response from Arena.net only this time also saying that...."Please be advised that GuildWars was never intended or designed to be played 1v1. We suggest you do not use the outcome of a 1v1 duel as any sort of guide for how well you will perform in guild versus guild events." (Remember Lunar you suggested if they know it's not a 1v1 game then what's the big deal.)

-Our player wanting, what appears "elusive," revenge upon the other team for cheating, a cheating our player remains most certain of based on the 1v1 and all that has proceeded thereafter in a perfecly logical sequence that has been thought out and re-thought out to make sure it leads to the same conclusion. This irrespective of throughout the thought process being emotionally fueled by the embarassment, loss, and desire of revenge responds to arena.net:

"If the game isn't based on 1v1 then why is that available? Why do you guys have something there that I can do to try out my build if it doesn't actually help me with what the game is really about? You really need to re-think this game, maybe make it for 1v1 so that it matters. I am sure it won't take much for you guys to do that since you made such an awesome game, but still [and this is my favorite] I think the other team must have cheated anyway, they had to, there is just no way we could have lost to them like that. I have waited for you guys to do something about it. Just tell me are you gonna or not? I just need to know because I can't play a game if there are gonna be cheaters allowed. I mean how long can it take to investigate this?"

Don't you just love lineal processions of perfect logical certainty? No one can fault the player that relied on 1v1 dueling because it would be incompetent for Arena.net to feature something that people will naturally use as a guide irrespective of all other reasoning. And once they are relying on anything they will badger you to make the game meet what they rely on. This is why all the statements made supporting it right now only make my case as stated in the previous post and actually right here. The lineal procession of perfect logical certainty is already happening, all reason thrown right out the window, and this is without the previous guild v guild loss scenario.

Ossus · Apr 22, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

I don't have any desire to duel to try out strategies, or to show how powerful I am, or even initiate people into the guild. I just want to kill my buddies. I want to light them on fire and laugh. I also want to way to solve disputes over talking about peoples moms (etc...). I don't want anything tactical or high falutin. I just want to have fun at my weaker friends expense.

Lunarhound · Apr 23, 2005, 02:35 AM // 02:35

People getting upset over losing a guild battle has nothing to do with one on one fighting. A bad build is a bad build, whether it was created for dueling or not and the sort of person who will accuse their team of cheating because their build didn't work, is going to do that sort of thing anyway. By your logic, PvE shouldn't be in the game either, because someone might find something that works against monsters and be "mislead" into thinking that it will work just as well in PvP.

As has been pointed out before, the game isn't "balanced" for the sort of PvP that takes place in the Gladiator Arena either, but it's in the game anyway, because people wanted it. So far, it hasn't caused anything to implode.

I understand what your'e saying, Sin, but really, you're blowing all of this way out of proportion. Anyone who has absolutely no comprehension of the fact that every build isn't going to work in every situation, and starts accusing other people of cheating the moment they lose, well... that person is, in a word, stupid. If things were constantly left out just to accomodate theoretical stupid people, we'd barely have a shred of a game.

Allowing players to fight each other one on one in private is not going to shake the foundations of Guild Wars and cause everything to come crashing down. It's a harmless, fun diversion and those who choose not to participate will barely even know it exists.

Sin · Apr 23, 2005, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Lunar, if I am blowing it out of proportion it is to the same degree you aren't taking this seriously. And I resent the idea that we have to assume anyone is stupid. I am not an elitest. I am interested in not implementing things that just slow down the next expansion. You aren't taking seriously how much what I described will occur. And I don't understand why considering how many times you have seen this question or similar posted....

"I heard the max level is 20? Isn't that kinda low?

Stupid people aren't asking the question, just people who don't understand, they can't wrap their mind around it because of the games they came from and the echos of those games in current players who continue to hang on to old ideas. How can you tell? They will repeat almost this same question, sometimes rephrased, every third reply for at least 4 rotations, why? Disbelief. Disbelief from what they are conditioned to believe is necessary in the game, a disbelief that is never fully neutralized until they wrap their mind around the concept, sometimes that takes playing the game. Herein lies the challenge.

People, including yourself have been told the answer to the 1v1 situation, yet, you remain in disbelief. You aren't being denied anything nor is anyone else who wants it, but you will not hear that because of disbelief. It doesn't matter if logically you can't be denied what the game never offered, what matters is that you want something and someone said no and now you push push push because of disbelief. All the while showing exactly what will happen when people, especially with the massive onslaught that is due, start relying on solo, if it were implemented, and then losing in the team forum, they would take up their cause in disbelief. Your rationale has no bearing on their emotional desire in any greater way than my rationale has had any impact on your emotional desire toward this due to your emotional response to thinking "they shouldn't be denied," and that's all because of disbelief!

So when you can comprehend the parallel that you are demonstrating in claiming this is an overreaction and justifying it by calling them stupid, because it's such a good idea. Just think about that. You are claiming other people who you've never met or known are stupid because of how they might react to what they think is an injustice while the only reason you are doing it is the same emotional reaction--with the same rejection of all rationale to the contrary of your emotional desire. I rest my case with all the evidence provided by all of you, for exactly the scenario I laid out taking place.

Keep pushing for your emotionally necessary 1v1 just because you feel some injustice if it doesn't happen. Thereafter if the expanse isn't all you had hoped, if the skills aren't as good as you had hoped, if some patching isn't done as quickly as is possible, just remember you were forewarned, and you proved out the forewarning was accurate in demanding this be added to the game irrespective of all rationale that has said it will only lead to problems all because of disbelief.

You are also misrepresenting the value of PVE when claiming the rationale applies to it as the PVE is designed for training teamwork. Sure builds are different. However there is a teamwork aspect you learn, coordination, listening, focus fire, many things. None. Not one of these aspects occurs in 1v1 so nothing is gained whatsoever to help someone know their build will work in a team. They can be told this to their face and yet, they think they are testing their build. Look at the threads and their posts for how many want it for testing their build and you'll see just the fraction potential of what will be emailing arena.net about the other team, not their team (as you suggested i said in your post), but the other team cheating in guild versus guild! So now the last part.

Whether Arena.net takes this on or not I remain confident that if they do we will suffer for it as a whole. I am sorry you don't care as is evidenced by summary dismissal under the head "overreacting" when you aren't taking it anywhere near serious. Yes let's let majority rule even if the majority is many times wrong, ask the families of the Salem women who died or take a simple review of the many other episodes in our more recent history. Obviously if a group of people agree to something necessity is proven in fact, not just politics and some like minded people agreeing to something. No absolute necessity is established....Yea right.

I for one have waited 6 months for this game, sure others waited longer and some shorter, I applaud them all and thank them for the support, why? Because now I want this game to deliver over the next 6 years as well as it has the last 6 months. Anything that can or would hinder or disturb that has no useful purpose. This 1v1 issue is one of those things, not because of what you say does or doesn't need to be done, but because Arena.net doesn't do things sloppy.

Xellos · Apr 23, 2005, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Sin, just out of technicality, if you make an excuse up for everything, there's no such thing as stupid then. You have to draw a line at some point. Some people choose narrowness as a sign of stupidity. Words like stupid are too vague, and have no definitive standard, so you can't really go "Their not stupid" because that's only by your definition. Of course, we should still be polite, so saying such things shouldn't be encouraged. But that's about the only reason saying stupid is invalid, not the definition itself.

My opinion is to keep this out until the game is at a satisfactory point, which will be at least months or maybe years from now. The game isn't being close to becoming the next big thing in the gaming world, it's fun, but at this point, from scaling and extrapolation, it's more like when warcraft 3 came out. It's not starcraft level in terms of how good it is compared to the games that are out at the same time. So I think ArenaNet should focus on polishing it, balancing it out, and tweak all the things to make this game live up to it's maximum potential with what it has first, then add on these things.

Who knows, maybe after the game gets polished to near-perfection, people will no longer want 1v1 because their mentality is set on teamwork, which would be a good thing. Or maybe there will be a demand for 1v1. But either way, I believe we shouldn't always ask for change, when we haven't even tried to settle down first. It's like buying a house, then changing it every few days, how are you possibly going to satisfy yourself if you can't even get use to something?

Sin · Apr 23, 2005, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Xellos, I totally agree on what Arena.net's focus should be. I am sure you are aware I never said anyone is stupid, my reference to it was in response to someone using "name calling" as a form of justification.

As far as drawing a line, once and a while I draw one. Once and a while I see sometimes some people are mentally challenged, however I do not refer to them as such in sarcasm or a mean way. Some people, usually with an i.q. of less than 80, although I tend to find that being abused as a guage, have a difficulty comprehending quite a bit that most of the people posting to this forum and that are playing GuildWars take for granted. These people, the mentally challenged, aren't playing GuildWars see. Our fellow brethren are, for lack of a better term, "brighter."

Therefore I take offense to any of my fellow players being referred to as stupid, and would rather see those who would so easily name call identify this function of name calling as the great big red flag for them to realize they are becoming emotional about the issue. This is important because whatever reasonableness they may have normally in most situations has just flown right out the window. This thread is riddled with such things by all who have posted to it, and believe me I have a high respect for them merely for playing GuildWars and being in the forums instead of playing WOW or whatever else.

That said, now let's realize none of us are stupid but we can let emotion override our willingness to listen to reason. Such has easily and consistently occured with the 1v1 dueling issue. And please be clear Xellos I make no excuses for those that are mentally challenged, they do not play this game, most you will find don't even have a computer. Yes mentally challenged is a legal condition that I tend to believe no one posting to this forum suffers from until proven wrong.